Curse

Sab · May 23, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Any PvPer who has played competitively for more than 1 1/2 years would've done a ton of PvE. Before the J menu, PvPers were forced to grind out perfectly outfitted characters, or be left with a major disadvantage. Most top PvPers would've started long before that.

Avarre · May 23, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Though many PvPers are just nerds with too much time in their hands, I don't think they actually PvEd that much.

You're pretty much blind then. That or deliberately ignoring facts.

PvE characters were a necessity to play top-tier PvP due to weapon and armor sets. Every PvP'er had a PvE character decked out for PvP, in each class they played.

A lot of PvP players are ex-PvE'ers who finished the game and were looking for something else to do with their top-end gear. The majority of the rest dipped into PvE to get a character fully set up (pre-NF, obviously).

When new areas opened, it was extremely common to see high-end PvP groups forming for PvE areas. I went through Vizunah in a r10+ team (it was nice playing with people that use res signs when people die), for example. PvP players tended to rush through the game since they wanted to get all the content available: armor and weapons for characters, and because they needed PvE characters, they had to unlock all the required skills - including elites.

Akaraxle · May 23, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You're pretty much blind then. That or deliberately ignoring facts.

PvE characters were a necessity to play top-tier PvP due to weapon and armor sets. Every PvP'er had a PvE character decked out for PvP, in each class they played.

A lot of PvP players are ex-PvE'ers who finished the game and were looking for something else to do with their top-end gear. The majority of the rest dipped into PvE to get a character fully set up (pre-NF, obviously).

Hi, I still have those armors and weapons too. Doesn't mean you actually had to play and enjoy PvE: we just grinded through it as quickly as possible and spent our neverending (not in my case, though...) reserves into those. Not really that hard if you ask me, but it was still a pain - at least until armor swapping was disabled and the J menu came around.

Avarre · May 23, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Doesn't mean you actually had to play and enjoy PvE: they just grinded through it as quickly as possible and spent their neverending reserves into those.

We most certainly did have to play PvE. Whether someone enjoys it or not is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that most top PvP players had not only PvE characters, but PvE character with 15k/FoW armor and rare weaponskins, should show you that more effort than the average PvE-only player went in.

Not to mention the ones who fully went through PvE before even starting PvP - those 'neverending reserves' were a result of having crushed PvE utterly. Every time a new chapter came out (and hard mode), nearly the entire PvP community goes into PvE to explore and try out new skills. Any point you may have about 'not actually playing PvE' is void due to its disagreement with reality.

Akaraxle · May 23, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

We most certainly did have to play PvE. Whether someone enjoys it or not is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that most top PvP players had not only PvE characters, but PvE character with 15k/FoW armor and rare weaponskins, should show you that more effort than the average PvE-only player went in.

Or more time spent in UW? wakakakakakaka

Go talk to any "top" player around atm and find out where they got the money for all their stuff. Should I remind you about conzpi selling iB (or whatever of his finn guilds it was) and showing off here on guru with his full set of tormented weapons?
I've been a top player and had my full set of ele armors for my role, but never have I dedicated time specifically to get rare skins. Those who did it, only farmed ectos to look good on obs mode - not played the actual content.

This late discussion seemed to be about "do PvPers play PvE"? My answer is, most don't anymore. Most had to in the past. Most didn't want to.

Avarre · May 23, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Or more time spent in UW? wakakakakakaka

Go talk to any "top" player around atm and find out where they got the money for all their stuff. Should I remind you about conzpi selling iB (or whatever of his finn guilds it was) and showing off here on guru with his full set of tormented weapons?

To sell a top guild, you need to first bring a guild to top level.

To be a top guild, you need to have fully equipped characters for maximum competitive ability.

To do this, you need PvE gear in the first place. You need to play through PvE in order to cap/purchase skills for the character.

Stop trying to pull random facts out and pretending you have an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

This late discussion seemed to be about "do PvPers play PvE"? My answer is, most don't anymore. Most had to in the past. Most didn't want to.

Yes. Most have quit PvE. I'd go so far as to say most of the old players, PvE-only or both, have quit PvE or the game entirely.

A big reason for this is because of PvE segregating and becoming a shallow, boring single-player game.

Tyla · May 23, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I will, just as soon as you find me a PvPer who likes PvE.

I guess I'm that person then.

Look, before Factions and the movement of Heroes' Ascent (Was called Tombs of the Primeval Kings at the time) to the Battle Isles, you needed to play through PvE anyway.

PvE is also fun to let off some steam, and to chill out without being serious to be victorious in your games.

And even then, I believe before the "J" menu implimentation, you were only aloud 2 weapon sets.

Yet, you need plentiful sets.

A shield for every damage type, -5E and +5E, high energy set, 40/40 sets, staves for enchanting...

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Originally Posted by Mantibota dude

And yet they are still PvPers that dont play PvE at all. Though I did chuckle alittle when you hinted that they didnt really count.

Press B please.

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What about the same from the hardcore PvPers thats been saying that for so long. If you cant take the heat then get the hell out of the kitchen.

That's because they hold a valid argument against something that threatens their fun. Imbalance, buildwars, and more.

And don't even use that "Counter it!" joke of an argument. There may be counters, but by that logic, nothing is imbalanced and the game is perfectly balanced.

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Now that its on the other foot its not so nice huh. Just like the PvPers bitch and moan for nerfs because they couldnt adapt either.

If you understood much about PvP'ing for fun, you wouldn't of posted this.

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And for any side to do it isnt any good at all. Its just funny when people show how much a hypocrite they really are.

Adapting to changes is what should be done.

Adapting to one single thing is usually carried out in the first place, but then again, does it stop things being overpowered, degenerate or whatever? No.

Akaraxle · May 23, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

To sell a top guild, you need to first bring a guild to top level.

To be a top guild, you need to have fully equipped characters for maximum competitive ability.

To do this, you need PvE gear in the first place. You need to play through PvE in order to cap/purchase skills for the character.

Stop trying to pull random facts out and pretending you have an argument.

Again I remind you of the HUGE amounts of gold you'd make from winning halls. Just about every old-school GvG player was born in tombs, because guilds were born in tombs, and sigils sold for A LOT; if Kaon happened to read this section, I'm sure he'd share just how much gold he and his friends made in the past.
Then there's also people that made millions out of exploiting the first price reset, that dropped 40k/ea runes to 100g/ea and was never rolled back. And then there's people that made a living out of scamming (hi vanq).

What I'm saying is, PvP players are masters at abusing stuff: any "hardcore" PvPer that made money, made it in the shortest possible way. I consider "playing PvE" as actually going through the game yourself, without getting your toons boosted by guildies or spending your time between GvGs in UW with your 55 monk.
I did play and like PvE, never had a toon devoted to farming, and used the gold I had saved (and farmed up a little from Ettins back in the days) to buy what I needed for PvP: you can certainly lump me together with the "PvPers that do PvE". But were ALL skins to be available through tournament rewards, I assure you no one from the "good" guilds would be playing PvE at all.

Sab · May 23, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

What I'm saying is, PvP players are masters at abusing stuff: any "hardcore" PvPer that made money, made it in the shortest possible way. I consider "playing PvE" as actually going through the game yourself, without getting your toons boosted by guildies or spending your time between GvGs in UW with your 55 monk.
I did play and like PvE, never had a toon devoted to farming, and used the gold I had saved (and farmed up a little from Ettins back in the days) to buy what I needed for PvP: you can certainly lump me together with the "PvPers that do PvE". But were ALL skins to be available through tournament rewards, I assure you no one from the "good" guilds would be playing PvE at all.

Afaik, there are two PvPers in "very good" guilds that have r6 KoaBD, a few more with r3-5, and a whole lot who have random max PvE titles here and there. Divine could probably give a complete breakdown of who has what. Point is, top PvPers don't all do the bare minimum, some actually play it - you know - for fun.

Tyla · May 23, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

There is no valid argument about skill balances having a drastic effect on PvE.

All are trivial, and usually the big updates come with buffs aswell.

And guess what? The PvP pack wasn't implimented until roughly november last year.

By the way, again, just because there are counters doesn't mean it can't be overpowered. With that logic, skill balance wouldn't be done, because everything will be balanced.
Not only that, but you're sacrificing skills to take down one thing when it will fail against everything else. And this should be a game of skill, not rock paper scissors.

Build Wars is bad.

Quote:

You obviously havent been around guru long have you. Its always been that PvPers saying N33D 2 L34RN TO PL4Y and L34RN 2 AD4PT to PvE'rs. And when its on the other hand you see the crying. But its ruining the game , taking the fun out of, its not fair, etc etc.

Have you ever thought that on the other hand it's ruining the PvP portion of the game?

Things so trivial shouldn't scare the skill balancer, however bad at his job, into seperating the game.

This game's original focus was PvP anyway. And playing PvP means you have to learn more parts of the game and put more effort in.

Azora · May 23, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

They need to worry more about your spelling than your maths.

I'm sorry to see Glyph of Concentration reverted to 'nerfed' status. That's all.

im not american or english somy mother language isnt english...-.-"

my parents dont care if i suck at english cause all i learned was form playng mmorpgs and games in english so if u care soo much about me pay me a english course and then we will talk

Cause for a person who learned all from playng english games talk like me is kind of a big deal..

DarkNecrid · May 23, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azora

im not american or english somy mother language isnt english...-.-"

my parents dont care if i suck at english cause all i learned was form playng mmorpgs and games in english so if u care soo much about me pay me a english course and then we will talk

Cause for a person who learned all from playng english games talk like me is kind of a big deal..

who cares, you don't need an english course to know u should be you and teh should be the.

There's a ton of free resources to learn English online as well.

Rift · May 23, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

There is no valid argument about skill balances having a drastic effect on PvE.

Starting a post with blatant fallacies does not bode well for the rest of your argumentation.

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Changed the elite skill used by the henchman Mhenlo in Eye of the North to Word of Healing.

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Reduced the healing attributes of Forgotten Priests in the Thirsty River to compensate for the increased effectiveness of their Word of Healing skill.

Tyla · May 23, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Maybe I should rephrase it to "Not very often" then, whatever.

And besides, it's usually the big updates that carry the bigger nerfs, and also carry buffs alongside it.

I believe both were in a big update.

Also, it didn't exactly render PvE unplayable now did it?

Snow Bunny · May 23, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

The majority of PvPers do not use PvP-only editions.

Get that silly concept out of your empty heads. Go on observer mode for once, what do you see?

Crystalline swords, Tormented Weapons, FoW armor, EotN armor, Voltaic Spears, et RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cetera. A lot HA for it, but a lot PvE for it. Where do they get the money for it? They must pve at some point. And to get the armor, they have to pve to get to the crafter.

Really, don't throw that bullshit fallacy into the argument, you're quite honestly being retarded.

Racthoh · May 23, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rift

Starting a post with blatant fallacies does not bode well for the rest of your argumentation.

Compensation for the bad players; Thirsty River and Mhenlo monking did not make the game impossible. Same reason this skill separation was done.

Rift · May 23, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Also, it didn't exactly render PvE unplayable now did it?

For you and I, probably not. But for someone who's going through Desert missions for the first time, it would be a different story.

This is the mistake people most often make -- not to see balance changes through the eyes of a new player. This is part of the complexity of change in PVE, which was one of the driving forces behind the skill separation.

Rift · May 23, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Compensation for the bad players; Thirsty River and Mhenlo monking did not make the game impossible. Same reason this skill separation was done.

At the end of the day, this is a business.

It would be suicide not to cater to the majority of "bad" players -- they are the cash-cow of this industry. Veterans like us generate very little revenu, especially since there are no monthly fees.

Thizzle · May 23, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

It sounds like a good idea.

Tyla · May 23, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rift

At the end of the day, this is a business.

It would be suicide not to cater to the majority of "bad" players -- they are the cash-cow of this industry. Veterans like us generate very little revenu, especially since there are no monthly fees.

Fair enough point.

But it's still quite sad to see a good game go downhill...